From: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: THE ROCKET AND THE REICH
Date: 25 Jan 1995 23:23:38 GMT
Message-ID: <3g6mhq$rka@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
I am currently reading Micheal Neufeld's THE ROCKET AND THE REICH, the
book that is, IMHO, soon to be regarded as the definitive history of the
German V-2 project. Neufeld, curator of the WWII exhibits at the National
Air and Space Museum, has used many previously unavailable resources in
writing this book, and it is sure to supersede earlier efforts such as
Walter Dornberger's self-serving V-2 and the assorted memoirs,
festschriften and hagiographies by and about von Braun & Co.
Neufeld demolishes what remains of the notion that the V-2 was
developed by a group of apolitical rocket scientists whose real
purpose was to promote space travel. He makes it quite clear that
by their own testimony the chief designers of the V-2 were on the
make to the German Army from 1932 onward and that they were well
aware of the ghastly conditions under which the slave-laborers who
built the rockets worked, lived and died.
He provides clear technical explanations of the design of the rocket and the
technical developments that made it a reality. His analysis of the cost
effectiveness of the V-2 demonstrates that the entire project was,
from a military standpoint, a colossal boondoggle that delivered
a total weight of explosives far less than that dropped by the British in
a single large air raid. The V-2 also failed as a terror weapon--the V-1
Buzz-Bomb was much more frightening--and didn't
even result in the diversion of any significant Allied effort to stop it;
they realized they couldn't, so they didn't bother--it missed the target
most of the time anyway. On the other hand the V-2 did divert
substantial German resources away from projects (aircraft production
for example) that would have contributed to the defense of the Reich.
It shortened the war, but in favor of the Allies.
---Special Note for Pynchoniacs---
Neufeld stresses the extreme secrecy of the entire German rocket development
project from its very inception to its very end, a feature which shoots
the hell out of the knowledgable adventures of Slothrop, Borgesius, et, al.,
but,why expect facts from fiction, right?
Any serious student of GR should read this book.
J. Del Col
--
Jeff Del Col * "Sleeplessness is like metaphysics.
A-B College * Be there."
Philippi, WV *
* ----Charles Simic----
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: andrew@cee.hw.ac.uk (Andrew Dinn)
Subject: Re: THE ROCKET AND THE REICH
Message-ID:
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 11:09:10 GMT
Jeffrey A. Del Col (br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:
: I am currently reading Micheal Neufeld's THE ROCKET AND THE REICH, the
: book that is, IMHO, soon to be regarded as the definitive history of the
: German V-2 project. Neufeld, curator of the WWII exhibits at the National
: Air and Space Museum, has used many previously unavailable resources in
: writing this book, and it is sure to supersede earlier efforts such as
: Walter Dornberger's self-serving V-2 and the assorted memoirs,
: festschriften and hagiographies by and about von Braun & Co.
I skimmed this when I was in London over Xmas but didn't find much new
in it on first glance. It looked like he had merely assembled existing
material but done so systematically (I think in the introduction he
said something to this effect e.g. that he wanted to substantiate much
that was in Irving's book with solid references). He seemd to cite
Irving, Sperr, Dornberger, Collyer quite frequently. What new material
has he brought up?
: Neufeld demolishes what remains of the notion that the V-2 was
: developed by a group of apolitical rocket scientists whose real
: purpose was to promote space travel. He makes it quite clear that
: by their own testimony the chief designers of the V-2 were on the
: make to the German Army from 1932 onward and that they were well
: aware of the ghastly conditions under which the slave-laborers who
: built the rockets worked, lived and died.
One fact I did not know was that Dornberger spent 2 years in a British
gaol (as opposed to a US jail?) before he was nabbed for the US rocket
program. The Brits wanted revenge for his being an accessory to the
use of terror weapons against their population. Pretty rich after
Dresden?
: He provides clear technical explanations of the design of the rocket and the
: technical developments that made it a reality.
I thought this was available in Collyer's book? When in London I
located but did not purchase what looked like a `Ladybird Guide to
Rockets' published in the 70s (I think is is `The rocket : the history
and development of rocket & missile technology' and is by David Baker
but I am not sure if this is the correct title). Despite the kiddies
book format it had detailed schematics and technical data on a variety
of missiles and bombs developed by the Germans, including the
Wasserfall anti-aircraft missile (mentioned in Speer) and the
Enzian(!) missile. Many of these rockets/bombs were developed at the
Peenemunde Luftwaffe base just round the coast from the Army's V2
development site.
: His analysis of the cost
: effectiveness of the V-2 demonstrates that the entire project was,
: from a military standpoint, a colossal boondoggle that delivered
: a total weight of explosives far less than that dropped by the British in
: a single large air raid.
Speer makes this calculation in `Inside The Third Reich'.
: The V-2 also failed as a terror weapon--the V-1
: Buzz-Bomb was much more frightening
This is also in Speer.
: --and didn't
: even result in the diversion of any significant Allied effort to stop it;
: they realized they couldn't, so they didn't bother--it missed the target
: most of the time anyway.
The Allies were worried enough to launch a raid on Peenemunde in
1943. This is thoroughly documented in a book called `The Peenemunde
Raid' by the British historian Martin Middlebrook.
: On the other hand the V-2 did divert
: substantial German resources away from projects (aircraft production
: for example) that would have contributed to the defense of the Reich.
: It shortened the war, but in favor of the Allies.
But it must be mentioned that this diversion of effort happened fairly
late on in the war. In `V2' Dornberger bemoans the fact that the
rocket project was on such a low budget until Hitler's dreams of
`Vengeance' led him to boost its funding in 1942/3(?). Speer
acknowledges that the program was a waste of effort given its rewards
but I remember him downplaying the effect of the program since the
remaining armaments program was more seriously threatened by critical
shortages of natural resources (oil, chrome, rubber etc) than by
diversion of materials to rocket production and the rocket program
only gradually filched human resources (skilled workers) from the rest
of industry when the SS finally resorted to arresting workers on
trumped up charges in order to throw them into the concentration camp
at the Nordhausen rocket works.
: ---Special Note for Pynchoniacs---
: Neufeld stresses the extreme secrecy of the entire German rocket development
: project from its very inception to its very end, a feature which shoots
: the hell out of the knowledgable adventures of Slothrop, Borgesius, et, al.,
: but why expect facts from fiction, right?
I think Steven Weisenburger's book discusses this subject. Pynchon has
Slothrop and Katje study details of the rocket under the tutelage of
OSS and British Military Intelligence (at the Casino Herman Goering).
The Allies did know intimate technical details of the rocket at this
late stage having grabbed stuff from Peenemunde refugees and from the
Peenemunde site (Pynchon's line about blueprints stained with SS piss
and shit is based on the fact that some documents were recovered from
the latrines). Earlier on in the story (when the bombs are dropping on
Slothrop's conquests) the Allies did know that `Gravity's Angel' was
really a rocket bomb rather than (as well as?) a visitation from some
higher force (see Middleton's book for details of how much they knew
before the 1943 raid). In Pynchon's case the strange but true reality
is that one finds the most unlikely facts popping up out of the
fiction.
: Any serious student of GR should read this book.
Damn. I was hoping I had saved myself 18 pounds but I suspect I will
have to read it.
Andrew Dinn
-----------
there is no map / and a compass / wouldn't help at all
From: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: THE ROCKET AND THE REICH
Date: 31 Jan 1995 13:45:08 GMT
Message-ID: <3glet4$s8j@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
In a previous article, andrew@cee.hw.ac.uk (Andrew Dinn) says:
>Jeffrey A. Del Col (br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:
>: I am currently reading Micheal Neufeld's THE ROCKET AND THE REICH, the
>: book that is, IMHO, soon to be regarded as the definitive history of the
>: German V-2 project. Neufeld, curator of the WWII exhibits at the National
>: Air and Space Museum, has used many previously unavailable resources in
>: writing this book, and it is sure to supersede earlier efforts such as
>: Walter Dornberger's self-serving V-2 and the assorted memoirs,
>: festschriften and hagiographies by and about von Braun & Co.
>
>I skimmed this when I was in London over Xmas but didn't find much new
>in it on first glance. It looked like he had merely assembled existing
>material but done so systematically (I think in the introduction he
>said something to this effect e.g. that he wanted to substantiate much
>that was in Irving's book with solid references). He seemd to cite
>Irving, Sperr, Dornberger, Collyer quite frequently. What new material
>has he brought up?
Neufeld makes extensive use of material in the various archives of
Captured German Documents.
>
>One fact I did not know was that Dornberger spent 2 years in a British
>gaol (as opposed to a US jail?) before he was nabbed for the US rocket
>program. The Brits wanted revenge for his being an accessory to the
>use of terror weapons against their population. Pretty rich after
>Dresden?
Neufeld points out that Dornberger ought to have been tried for
exploitation of slave-labor, a charge that would have been very easy to
prove.
>: His analysis of the cost
>: effectiveness of the V-2 demonstrates that the entire project was,
>: from a military standpoint, a colossal boondoggle that delivered
>: a total weight of explosives far less than that dropped by the British in
>: a single large air raid.
>
>Speer makes this calculation in `Inside The Third Reich'.
>
>: The V-2 also failed as a terror weapon--the V-1
>: Buzz-Bomb was much more frightening
>
>This is also in Speer.
>
>: --and didn't
>: even result in the diversion of any significant Allied effort to stop it;
>: they realized they couldn't, so they didn't bother--it missed the target
>: most of the time anyway.
>
>The Allies were worried enough to launch a raid on Peenemunde in
>1943. This is thoroughly documented in a book called `The Peenemunde
>Raid' by the British historian Martin Middlebrook.
>
Yes, Neufeld mentions these raids and points out that only the
first one had any serious effect on the program. What I meant was that
the allies could not shoot down the V-2's so didn't
bother to divert any AA batteries, radars or fighter groups to deal
with them. They did, however, divert considerable resources to stopping
the V-1. R.V. Jones discusses this in detail in THE WIZARD WAR.
>: On the other hand the V-2 did divert
>: substantial German resources away from projects (aircraft production
>: for example) that would have contributed to the defense of the Reich.
>: It shortened the war, but in favor of the Allies.
>
>But it must be mentioned that this diversion of effort happened fairly
>late on in the war. In `V2' Dornberger bemoans the fact that the
>rocket project was on such a low budget until Hitler's dreams of
>`Vengeance' led him to boost its funding in 1942/3(?).
So Dornberger claims, but Neufeld demonstrates that the rocket project
enjoyed far greater prestige and priority much earlier on than Dornberger
was willing to admit. The V-2 project was the German equivalent of
the Manhattan Project in terms of the proportion of its demands
on the German economy.
Speer
>acknowledges that the program was a waste of effort given its rewards
>but I remember him downplaying the effect of the program since the
>remaining armaments program was more seriously threatened by critical
>shortages of natural resources (oil, chrome, rubber etc) than by
>diversion of materials to rocket production and the rocket program
>only gradually filched human resources (skilled workers) from the rest
>of industry when the SS finally resorted to arresting workers on
>trumped up charges in order to throw them into the concentration camp
>at the Nordhausen rocket works.
>
Speer was, as Neufeld points out, an unabashed supporter of
the rocket program. His denigration of it after the fact is rather
suspect.
>: ---Special Note for Pynchoniacs---
>
>: Neufeld stresses the extreme secrecy of the entire German rocket development
>: project from its very inception to its very end, a feature which shoots
>: the hell out of the knowledgable adventures of Slothrop, Borgesius, et, al.,
>: but why expect facts from fiction, right?
>
>I think Steven Weisenburger's book discusses this subject. Pynchon has
>Slothrop and Katje study details of the rocket under the tutelage of
>OSS and British Military Intelligence (at the Casino Herman Goering).
>The Allies did know intimate technical details of the rocket at this
>late stage having grabbed stuff from Peenemunde refugees and from the
>Peenemunde site (Pynchon's line about blueprints stained with SS piss
>and shit is based on the fact that some documents were recovered from
>the latrines). Earlier on in the story (when the bombs are dropping on
>Slothrop's conquests) the Allies did know that `Gravity's Angel' was
>really a rocket bomb rather than (as well as?) a visitation from some
>higher force (see Middleton's book for details of how much they knew
>before the 1943 raid). In Pynchon's case the strange but true reality
>is that one finds the most unlikely facts popping up out of the
>fiction.
>
R. V. Jones' book gives a detailed account of what the British knew
about the project: which wasn't much until the late summer of 1944.
The 1943 raid was aimed primarily at the housing settlements on
Peenemunde and was provoked largely by fear of the V-1 and those
curious "ski-jump" launching platforms.
It is true that Pynchon crams a lot facts into GR, (if you have static
characters, I guess sheer factitiousness will have to do instead)
but the notion that non-entities such as Slothrop and Katje would have
such detailed info is patently absurd.
J. Del Col
--
Jeff Del Col * "Sleeplessness is like metaphysics.
A-B College * Be there."
Philippi, WV *
* ----Charles Simic----
From: francis@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: THE ROCKET AND THE REICH
Date: 31 Jan 1995 14:13:02 GMT
Message-ID: <3glghe$agi@morrow.stanford.edu>
Andrew Dinn writes:
Jeffrey A. Del Col writes:
The V-2 also failed as a terror weapon--the V-1 Buzz-Bomb
was much more frightening
This is also in Speer.
It is always enlightening to listen to armchair warriors, but in this case
Dinn and Del Col are both in error. I was in London through both he V1 and
the V2 raids and the consensus was that the V2 was by far the worse. Very
briefly, one could hear the V1 coming over, and know when its engine cut
out which was when it descended rather quickly. After a while one became
quite blase about the whole affair, since it became rather obvious how near
it was, and how much time one had to scurry for shelter. The V2s were quite
another matter. Completely unheralded. Also, of course, much, much more
deadly.
Gnr F. Muir, RHA